[Question #11632] Just need to clear up the confusing parts about HIV testing.

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13 months ago
Hey docs, Hope all is well.. I got a couple questions that I need answered in regards to conclusive HIV testing times when it comes to the 4th generation Ab/Ag combo testing..   I personally have always tested negative after the window period ( 45 days ) with a 4th generation HIV test anytime I would be concerned.   I just drop by time to time to read other people’s post and I have got confused on a couple of things.   It seems that RNA/PCR testing is now more popular so I was just wondering if you could explain this answer I found on question #4476 by Dr. Handsfield

 “ if an AgAb test is negative after 6 weeks (or antibody alone after ~8 weeks), doing a PCR is usually unnecessary and a waste of money. “

1) I just want to know since you said it is “ usually unnecessary “, when is it necessary to do a PCR after a conclusive 6 week negative Ab/Ag test ? 

And one more thing I found in question # 8278 again from Dr. Handsfield.

” There are few known cases of the AgAb (4th generation) tests becoming negative, or remaining falsely negative, during the life of the infected person“

2) Can you explain how that would happen too ? How would one never test positive on the fourth generation if they HAD HIV ???

3) Basically I just want to make sure that the gold standard of getting a conclusive HIV test is still to take a 4th generation Ab/Ag combo atleast 45 days after possible exposure and if it is negative then that person is conclusively negative.  Or …. Is a PCR / RNA test needed after a negative 45 day 4th generation Ab/Ag combo test to confirm that the person is negative ? 

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Edward W. Hook M.D.
13 months ago
Welcome to the Forum.  Thanks for your questions.  Thanks as well for reviewing older posts- we leave them on the site as a source of information for our clients and for visitors to the site who want to learn more.  I note that the two questions you cite below are mover  than 2.5 years old and in some instances these older posts contain information which is somewhat out of date.  This is particular true for HIV tests as tests and testing patters have evolved as I discuss below.  With that I'll go specifically to your questions:

1) I just want to know since you said it is “ usually unnecessary “, when is it necessary to do a PCR after a conclusive 6 week negative Ab/Ag test ? 
PCR testing has become more widely available and somewhat cheaper although PCR tests remain substantially more expensive than 4th generation tests.  OTOH, with more experience with currently available commercial PCR tests, the tests have become more reliable.  For that reason, in the past few months we have our advice on the reliability of PCR tests for HIV. At this time, we can say with confidence that HIV tests taken 11 or more days after an encounter of concern will provide reliable, conclusive results and we feel that there is little need to follow a negative HIV PCR test taken 11 or more days after exposure with 4th generation tests at 4-6 weeks.  We are unaware of persons with negative HIV PCR tests at or beyond 11 days who have gone on to develop positive tests.  They do remain more expensive than 4th generation tests (prices vary) which remain our preferred tests for HIV testing.  

2.  Dr. Handsfield may have been referring to the so called 'window period" which occurs rarely in which soon after infection there may be a brief time when both antigen and antibody assays are negative because antibodies which are beginning to be formed combine with all circulating p24 antigen.  This phenomenon is quite rare and tends to be brief.   So-called "elite controllers" who can be chronically infected with HIV but whose immune systems delay or keep the infection from progressing typically do have both positive 4th generation tests and positive PCR tests.

I may have said more than you needed in reply.  I hope that I have not confused you.  The bottom line however is that a 45 day combination HIV antigen/antibody test is absolutely conclusive and reliable and remains our preferred test for HIV

EWH
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13 months ago
 Maybe I asked the wrong way.. I’ll try again …
1) Would there ever be a reason to take a RNA/PCR test after a 45 day negative 4th generation hiv lab test if the 4th generation at 45 days was the only test I took ?

Then on this quote from Dr.HHH…
” There are few known cases of the AgAb (4th generation) tests becoming negative, or remaining falsely negative, during the life of the infected person“

2) I understand there is a window period for 4th generation testing and that is 45 days … maybe I read your response wrong but when Dr. HHH said “there are few known cases of 4th generation tests becoming negative, or remaining falsely negative, DURING THE LIFE OF THE INFECTED PERSON “.    It just scares me because how would anyone in the world know if their test is accurate if there are times when the 4th generation could become negative and stay negative for life even though someone was to have HIV ? 
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Edward W. Hook M.D.
13 months ago
1.  I thought the answer would be apparent.  There is no reason to perform PCR testing after a negative 45 day 4th generation tests.    That's why I said "The bottom line however is that a 45 day combination HIV antigen/antibody test is absolutely conclusive and reliable and remains our preferred test for HIV"

2.  I cannot comment on what Dr. Handsfield was saying and suspect you are misinterpreting what was said.  EWH
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Edward W. Hook M.D.
13 months ago
Further, I went a tot he question you mention and Dr. Handsfield's statement was "There are few known cases of the AgAb (4th generation) tests becoming negative, or remaining falsely negative, during the life of the infected person. (To my knowledge, none at all.)"  Neither he, nor I have ever seen or heard of someone who had HIV and had a test become and stay negative.  Please don't go off the deep end regarding a statement which you are taking out of context.  As I said before- 4th generation HIV antigen/antibody tests remain the preferred tests for HIV.!!!  EWH---
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13 months ago
 My final follow up is just a couple quick questions about the “ second hiv window period “. What exactly is the “ second hiv window period “ ? Is it even a real thing these days with modern tests ? Is a 45 day negative 4th generation hiv test enough to clear the “ second hiv window period “ ( if there really is one ) and still be considered conclusive? 

Also thank you for going back in Dr. HHH’s reply.  I understand but it was just scary that Dr HHH actually wrote that (there were “ KNOWN “ cases of the AgAb (4th generation) tests becoming negative, or remaining falsely negative, during the life of the infected person, when he has never , to his knowledge , seen or heard of that before. Just don’t know why he would even write that if he has never seen or heard of it happening…I guess since neither you nor Dr HHH have ever seen or heard of this happening I will try to let that go and just believe if you have a 45 day negative 4th generation test then you are conclusive and do not need further testing .  I’ll be waiting for your final reply.   Thanks Doc 
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Edward W. Hook M.D.
13 months ago
I don't know where you heard about a "second HIV window period".  I have not heard of it in this form- sounds like something from the internet.  The so-called "HIV window" itself is quite rare and greatly exaggerated on the internet.  

As I said above (twice- a 45 day 4th generation test is conclusive.  Asking this question repeatedly will not change the answer.  

I cannot comment on why Dr. Handsfield made the statement he made.  Again, it was nearly 3 years ago.  

This completes this thread.  Please have confidence that a 45 day 4th generation combination HIV antigen antibody test will provide entirely conclusive results.  EWH
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13 months ago
I know this is over but just wanted to show you what I meant about the “ second window “ that I found on this site from Dr. Handsfield in question # 8056 … this is what I was referring to when I asked about a “ second window period for HIV “    Dr HHH wrote the following …

“ Some sources have claimed that antigen may disappear before antibody has developed, in theory creating a "second window" of transiently negative test results. This is now known to never occur, or so rarely it can be ignored:“ 


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Edward W. Hook M.D.
13 months ago
So, as Dr. Handsfield and I said- it is not a meaningful concern.  EWH---