[Question #13128] Conflicting information on Frottage/Apposition
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2 months ago
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Hi Doctors, thank you for putting together this website. It seems to be an invaluable resource for those looking for expert advice and information from yourselves. Now before I placed my question, I went through lots of other questions here and found some conflicting information regarding Frottage and apposition. It is not clear to me if either pose or don’t pose a risk for HIV specifically. Does placing your male genitalia against a woman’s with brushing or any type of movement pose concrete risks for risks? Also, if my exposure involved the aforementioned only and it is indeed an exposure to hiv, without any sort of penetration mind you, what would the timeline be for symptoms to appear? I noticed symptoms starting the day of the occurrence and now three days later I’ve developed a rash on my pelvis and lower abdomen. I am dubious whether or not this would be too early. Thank you.
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2 months ago
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Following up with a potential that there are secretions that come in contact with the penis/glans that contain hiv and if there is a difference in being uncircumcised or circumcised. Thank you.
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H. Hunter Handsfield, MD
2 months ago
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Greetings and welcome to the forum. Sorry for the longer than usual time it has taken me to respond.
We respond to every question individually; none of our replies are cut and pasted from previous ones, for example -- even for nearly identical questions. Depending on the user's specific concerns, the wording may differ quite a bit. What gets described as "zero risk" in one reply might have been "little or no risk" in others, or "no known cases but nobody can say it can never happen", and so on. My bet is that any apparent inconsistency in our replies to questions about frottage, genital aposition without penetration, hand-genital contact, etc stems from such clarifying statements.
You say nothing about the exposure you apparently are concerned about, but I will just repeat what I implied above: to my knowledge there has never been a known case of HIV in which the only possible exposure was body rubbing, genital-genital, or genital-anal contact without penetration.
As for symptoms, we advise paying no attention. Even the most typical symptoms of ARS appearing in the next couple of weeks after an exposure have causes other than HIV; and half or more of new infections cause no symptoms at all. The presence of symptoms usually should not be alarming and their absence is not reassuring in regard to whether HIV was acquired during the event. Testing is the only way to be certain. That doesn't mean I recommend you be tested; I do not. But to answer your question directly, HIV/ARS cannot cause symptoms sooner than 8-10 days after exposure and the usual time is 10-20 days. A day or 3 days later cannot be HIV; and the rash you mention doesn't sound typical for ARS anyway. Secondary syphilis might be a consideration If you have had other high risk sexual exposures in the past few months, but no STI causes skin rash within a few days. See a doctor if your rash continues or you otherwise remain concerned.
I hope these comments are helpful. Let me know if anything isn't clear.
HHH, MD
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2 months ago
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Thank you for responding Dr. Hansfield. From what I am understanding, it may be nearly impossible or not at all possible to contract HIV merely with Frottage or apposition. I’m under the assumption my exposure falls within this category and may not change your answer regarding this risk, however for the sake of laying out all cards on the table: my exposure involved an erotic massage at an established parlor where while being massaged in the nude, the woman massaging me with her body brushed up against my genitalia a few times with hers. I normally wouldn’t be particularly too worried however the for some reason my mind starting going through a few rounds of “what ifs”… What if she’s positive? What if there were secretions? What if there were tiny cuts of some sort? And so on… Mind you there was no intercourse of any kind, some gentle caressing on my part of her outer labia a few times with my fingers and her concluding the session by masturbating me. If this is not worth responding to due to it being considered ridiculous, feel free not to. I appreciate your help nonetheless thus far. Thanks. Have a pleasant Sunday.
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H. Hunter Handsfield, MD
2 months ago
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This additional information does not change my judgment or advice. There must have been billions of exposures similar to yours, including some with direct contact with genital fluids, maybe some sort of "tiny cuts", etc -- and still no known instances of HIV transmission. Even with unprotected vaginal sex to completion -- i.e. several minutes of penetration -- with an HIV infected woman, the male's HIV risk is estimated at one chance in 2,000 or lower.
It may also interest you to know that in the 21 years of this and our preceding forum, with thousands of questions from persons worried about HIV after a possible exposure, notably has yet turned out to be infected. If and when it finally happens, surely it will be from a genuinely risk exposure (think unprotected anal between two men) and not a previously unheard-of risk like yours. Really, just let this go -- it was a non-event in terms of HIV risk. Of course you're free to be tested anyway. If you do so, you definitely can expect a negative result.
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2 months ago
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If this isn’t reassuring for my what if’s I don’t know what is. Thank you for taking the time to respond Dr.Handsfield. You may consider this interaction completed.
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H. Hunter Handsfield, MD
2 months ago
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Thanks for the thanks. I'm glad to have helped and that you are satisfied with my advice. Best wishes and stay safe.---