[Question #8712] Body aches and pain

Avatar photo
40 months ago
Hello doctors. I initially asked a question about 10 days ago and Terri answered my questions. Not sure if Terri will be assigned this question again so I will give a little bit of details. 18 days ago I had protected vaginal sex at a massage parlor which lasted about 5-7 minutes. The condom slipped a little during sex. This was my first sex partner besides my wife in almost 20 years. Initially I thought condom sex was safe for all stds as long as the condom doesn’t break. I now realize that is false. I was mostly worried about herpes as condoms don’t provide complete protection. As time went on and two weeks passed I thought I was in the clear for herpes. However, 2 days ago I started having bad headaches and significant neck pain and stiffness. And then last night I started having body aches, fever, and chills. My wife and I haven’t left the house in a week so I doubt it is some other infection like flu causing my symptoms. I also have no runny nose, no sore throat, and no cough. Just the body aches, fever, stiff neck, and headaches.  I am now worried this could be the precursor to a herpes outbreak. As of now I have no obvious lesions. My questions are as follows:
1) can flu like symptoms happen before an initial herpes lesion outbreak?
2) do flu like symptoms only happen when lesions are present?
3) it has been almost 24 hours since the body aches and fever started. If this was an initial herpes outbreak, how soon after flu like symptoms begin would lesions appear?
4) is 18 days too far out for an initial outbreak?
5) what is the longest period of time from exposure to symptoms you have seen for herpes? 
6) could this be the initial presentation of any other std?
7) could this possibly be herpes encephalitis?


Avatar photo
40 months ago
Hello again. I am providing a quick update. Please also answer my questions in my above post. I saw my doctor today who thinks I have a mild case of meningitis. He came to this conclusion based on my symptoms along with the stiff neck. He also thinks that because I do not have typical ‘sick’ symptoms that it is very possible this is herpes meningitis. He says it fits my timeline. He also said that he has seen herpes meningitis without genital lesions. I tested negative for flu and covid-19. He said I could get a spinal tap but I really do not want to do that. Today is day 19 and still no obvious lesions. However, I still have the body aches, stiff neck, headaches, and fever. I feel like the severity has decreased slightly. Neck pain and headaches started on day 16. Fever and body aches on day 17. What do you make of all this?
Avatar photo
Terri Warren, RN, Nurse Practitioner
40 months ago
Good morning, I'm glad for your update, thank you.
I have to say that I don't really agree that what you have is her3pes meningitis.  It really doesn't fit your timeline very well, and several things don't fit well.,
First, this was a single protected sexual encounter.  We know that condoms reduce transmission from females to males by 65% and we also know that a single sexual encounter is very unlikely to transmit HSV.  It isn't impossible but very unlikely, especially with the use of the condom.
Second, while it is possible to acquire HSV 2 without any lesions, that is quite unusual as well. 
Third, the timing is off.  The average time from infection to symptoms is 5.5 days.  I've seen it take as long as 10 days.  But for you, it was two plus weeks before anything showed up and your first symptoms were not lesions but bad headaches and neck pain and stiffness.  This certainly doesn't fit what we would most often see.  How high was your fever? 

To answer your questions:
1) can flu-like symptoms happen before an initial herpes lesion outbreak?
Yes, this can happen or they can show up with lesions as well

2) do flu-like symptoms only happen when lesions are present?
See above.

3) it has been almost 24 hours since the body aches and fever started. If this was an initial herpes outbreak, how soon after flu like symptoms begin would lesions appear?
I've seen flu-like symptoms appear 1-3 days before an outbreak appears, but not much longer

4) is 18 days too far out for an initial outbreak?
Yes, I believe that it is!

5) what is the longest period of time from exposure to symptoms you have seen for herpes?
10 days

6) could this be the initial presentation of any other std?
Not that I can think of, no.

7) could this possibly be herpes encephalitis?
I seriously doubt that.

I do wonder how much your concern about the sexual encounter and your description to the doctor influenced what he came up with as a possible diagnosis.  If you hadn't told him about your protected sexual counter, would he have come up with possible herpes meningitis?  I doubt it.  You say this is your first time having sex with someone outside of your marriage.  I think that probably is weighing heavily on your mind and your worries.  And when we are talking about a new herpes infection causing your symptoms, we aren't just talking about your symptoms, we are talking about your marriage of many years and your future relationship with your wife. For these reasons, it is essential that this diagnosis is a correct one. I'm wondering if you should consent to the spinal tap - if not, how are you going to move forward with this issue?

While I am certain these symptoms are very worrisome to you, it just seems so unlikely to me that this is due to a new genital herpes infection.

While meningitis concerns are also a medical concern unrelated to herpes, I am going to ask Dr. Hook to also respond to your post.

Terri





---
---
Avatar photo
Edward W. Hook M.D.
40 months ago
I’ll briefly add to the comments Terri has already made. I agree entirely with her assessment. I also respectfully disagree with your doctor that this is suggestive of HSV meningitis. On the other hand, it may well be a so-called “aseptic meningitis” which is most often caused by a wide variety of viral illnesses of which HSV is one. The likelihood however that you have HSV is very low for all the reasons that Terri’ has told you. 

I suspect that your stiff neck will resolve at about the same time your muscle and joint aches do.  If they continue to get worse or they do not resolve over a few days, I would urge you to return to either the doctor you’ve seen before or another healthcare provider for further evaluation. The likelihood that this is HSV however is close to zero. 

FYI I added this, that Terri’s request but will not be providing additional comments. I believe your concerns about herpes or misplaced. EWH
---
Avatar photo
Terri Warren, RN, Nurse Practitioner
40 months ago
Thank you so much, Dr. Hook for adding your comments.  I'm so pleased that we agree.

Terri
---
Avatar photo
40 months ago
Thank you both for your replies. I ended up going to an STI testing clinic on day 21 and my results just came back. I am negative for all stds except IGG positive for both HSV1 and HSV2. The numbers were 1.2 for HSV1 and 2.96 for HSV2. I still don’t have any obvious herpes lesions, but there are some small red bumps at the base of my penis that have popped up. They don’t look like typical outbreaks tho. Obviously this horrible news and very distressing. I just had unprotected sex with my wife last night.  I literally can’t believe this has happened to me after just one condom protected mistake.
Avatar photo
Terri Warren, RN, Nurse Practitioner
40 months ago
I would be extremely reluctant to believe these results at this point.  While it is possible that you had herpes in the past and this test reflects an old infection, I know that both of us don't feel you acquired HSV from this encounter.  You need a herpes western blot to confirm these test results.  You are in what we call the low positive range and the CDC definitely recommends a confirmatory test for anyone in your test result range (1.1 to 3.0).  I suggest that you keep a close eye on your wife and any symptoms that she might have during the next 10 days.  I can help you with the western blot at westoverheights.com.  Please don't panic yet, OK?  And by any chance, are you a first or second generation immigrant to the US?  We are seeing many more false positive in this population.

Terri
---
Avatar photo
40 months ago
Thank you for your reply. I am not a first or second generation immigrant. I am Caucasian and 43 yrs old. I have a few additional questions as I process this and decide how to move forward:
1) does quest or Labcorp do herpes western blot testing
2) is it too early for herpes western blot testing? Today is day 23.
3) I was also HSV1 positive, but my result was only 1.2. Is it possible this is a false positive?
4) 2.96 basically is 3. Have you ever seen an HSV2 IGG level that high turn out to be a false positive?
5) is it possible to have a level of 2.96 after only 21 days? I know 21 days is very early for herpes testing.
6) they want me to take acyclovir. Do you think this is a good idea? Would the medicine effect future herpes testing?
7) I think this makes my doctors initial diagnosis of herpes meningitis more plausible. Would you agree?
8) any other advice for me? I know you said not panic, but I am panicking as I can’t help it. Thanks for your help!
Avatar photo
40 months ago
Oh and I should add that this testing was done through quest diagnostics. Not sure if that makes a difference.
Avatar photo
Terri Warren, RN, Nurse Practitioner
40 months ago
Quest labs have a 57% false positive rate if your index value falls between 1.1 and 3.0. that's HUGE
1) does quest or Labcorp do herpes western blot testing
No
2) is it too early for herpes western blot testing? Today is day 23.
Yes
3) I was also HSV1 positive, but my result was only 1.2. Is it possible this is a false positive?
Yes
4) 2.96 basically is 3. Have you ever seen an HSV2 IGG level that high turn out to be a false positive?
oh most certainly!  All the time

5) is it possible to have a level of 2.96 after only 21 days? I know 21 days is very early for herpes testing.
unlikely

6) they want me to take acyclovir. Do you think this is a good idea? Would the medicine effect future herpes testing?
absolutely not if you want to do the western blot in the future.

7) I think this makes my doctors initial diagnosis of herpes meningitis more plausible. Would you agree?
Nope

8) any other advice for me? I know you said not panic, but I am panicking as I can’t help it. Thanks for your help!
You'll just have to believe that there are high levels of false positives on this test.  And keep an eye on your wife.

Terri
---